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Paulina Kacprzak
Hi, this is Paulina.

Aga Naplocha
And I'm Aga. In the Design Practice podcast, we talk about the practical aspects of working at the intersection of technology and design.

Paulina Kacprzak
In this episode, we talk about how not to define yourself in the creative world, how to deal with pressure after creating a viral artwork on social media, about facing burnout, and vibing with various technologies and tools.

Aga Naplocha
Our guest is Johanna Jaskowska, known as Johwska, French with Polish origin. She's a multidisciplinary artist working in the realm of augmented reality. Her AR filter, Beauty 3000, went viral on Instagram and opened a totally new chapter in her career. Johanna worked with many famous brands such as Mercedes-Benz, Nike, or Harpers Bazar. Currently, she's based in Madrid, developing her co-working space, Patio Espacio.

Paulina Kacprzak
You can find notes and links mentioned in this episode in our website, designpractice.pl/063.

Aga Naplocha
If you've been listening to our podcast for a while, we'd be super grateful if you'd give feedback on Spotify or other platforms. This will help us reach to even more listeners. Thanks a lot in advance. Hi, Johanna.

Johwska
Hello!

Paulina Kacprzak
Hello.

Aga Naplocha
We always start with the question, what book have you recently read?

Johwska
Okay, I have a book next to my bed that is called... It's about money. Wait, I can go for it, one more.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah, sure. I'm super curious.

Johwska
So it's called "The Psychology of money".

Aga Naplocha
I heard about it. Do you like it?

Johwska
Yeah, I just started. I like it because I grew up in a family, in a very modest family, and there was no money teaching. And now I'm grown up and I want to do smart investment. I'm a mom, you know, like all of that stuff, and I really want to learn how to be smart about this stuff because money doesn't make happiness, but money is great tool to make great things.

Aga Naplocha
Yes, exactly.

Paulina Kacprzak
That's a good move then. Okay, so for the start, tell us what you do, what are you doing for a living and what's your passion?

Johwska
Okay. What do I do? I have no clue about what I'm doing. I don't know. To be honest, I'm just vibing. I have a lot of interests. I've always been a nerd. I'm really interested with technologies. I'm a creative. Okay, let's start with this. I'm a creative. Okay, yeah, that's a fact. I'm a creative that plays with new technologies. I'm kind of obsessed with all kind of technologies and what we can do with them and how fun it is. I see tools and new technologies as toys. And I see myself as a kid that is playing with toys. That's more or less my passion. Let's say it, let's see it that way. I'm kind of specialized in augmented reality these days or these past years because I've made some very popular face filters on Instagram and my work went viral. This part of my work went viral, and it's so much fun also. Let's say it. I do a lot of many things. I love to I play with artificial intelligence these days. I'm super obsessed with this. I love photography. I love the world of fashion and beauty and the future and identities. I love to talk about and to explore it about all of these topics.

Aga Naplocha
Great!

Johwska
Things like this.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah. So for sure, we're going to deep dive into some of these topics you mentioned, because it's super interesting. But first, to broaden our horizons and the context about you. Could you tell us, where are you currently based? And as far as we know, you are half Polish. So if you could also tell the story about what are your origins and where do you currently live and create.

Johwska
Okay. So I'm French from a Polish family. So I'm half French, half Polish. My mom arrived in Paris when she was something like 23, 24... 25, something like this. She came here to do art studies. Back in the days, the situation in Poland was not that great. And at that specific times when my mom was studying in Paris, my grandfather told her, try to stay in Paris because the situation is bad in Poland, so find a way to stay there. So she did. She stayed in France and she started to make her life there. And she got my sister and then she got me. And I arrived in the world. So yeah, I grew up in the suburbs of Paris, where many other immigrant family lives. So I grew up in a very eclectic and very multicultural space, modest but very rich in its cultural aspects. All of my friends are from families that come from abroad. Vietnamese, Cambodian, Chinese, Moroccan, Algerian, center of Africa. There was not so many French people and not so many Polish people. Actually, there wasn't any. We were the only Polish family. It was fun because my grandmother used to live with us on and off and when we were playing downstairs, like outside, my grandmother didn't see nothing. And when she was calling us to go to eat or have lunch or have dinner, she was screaming in the whole neighborhood, Johanna, Natalia, in a very Polish way. So all the neighborhood knew that we were the Polish family and we got this kind of reputation. So yeah, this is where I grew up and how I grew up in the suburb of Paris. And then I did my studies in Paris, and then I realized that Paris was very expensive, difficult, it's more like a survival life. If you don't come from a family that has a lot of money and stuff like that, like always for immigrants, yeah, it's survival mode. And I didn't know it was possible to live in a non-survival mode back in that days. And after traveling Berlin, I realized that I could have a life where I'm not working as a barman and working in clubs and working as a freelancer and stuff like this and I can focus on myself. So I moved out in Berlin first, and then I lived there for years and I developed myself as a creative. And I don't know, everything changed at that moment, actually. I felt more free. I don't know. And then, and then yeah, I travelled in United States. And then, I don't know, out of the blue, I arrived in Spain and then Madrid, and I falled in love with Madrid. And now I'm based here.

Aga Naplocha
Wow.

Paulina Kacprzak
Okay, that's a great story. And you told us about many possibilities, many ways you make your work, your art. So let's dive into one of them. We discovered you thanks to your AR work on Instagram. You have almost 500,000 followers on Instagram. That's really a lot. Tell us the story of your Instagram, because you said that it went viral. How it happened?

Johwska
Yeah, so, okay, it's all kind of linked and related to when I moved out in Berlin. When I moved out there, I started to do my portfolio, look for a real job. As I said, my life in Paris as a student was like working, studying, working, then I got tired of studying. I did four years and then I was like, this is so boring, I don't...  You know, the typical kind of studies that they teach you something that...

Paulina Kacprzak
What did you study?

Johwska
Oh, visual communication and multimedia. Yeah, it's graphic design, multimedia with... so it's like, yeah, visual arts and design, but with the multimedia touch. And back in the days, the digital world were not what it is today. So my studies were a lot about self-taught. We were learning a lot and doing a lot by ourselves. Basically, tutorial, YouTube, learning, forums. This is what I do, I'm I'm always learning myself. I'm self-taught. And my class where I studied was like we were all in the same kind of vibe, because teachers were teaching us Flash and technologies that were actually dying. So yeah, that was my studies. And it got like, after four years, got boring because the typical they are teaching you something that doesn't feel like going to help you in the real life. Sometimes, study can feel very abstract. And also because, you know, Paris is a very expensive city. I was working as a bartender, working in festivals, working in clubs, working... I was doing a video mapping, anything to make a bit of money. When I moved to Berlin, my goal was like I need to find a real job in an office. It was also to make my mom feel more of confidence with what I was doing. Because when you're freelancing and when you do very experimental creative work, they don't understand what you do. I mean, she still doesn't really understand what I'm doing. But yeah, when I was going to Berlin, my goal was like, okay, let's find a job in an office where I'm going to the office from 9:00 to 6:00 and I have a fixed salary. So she feels like, oh, she has a job.

Aga Naplocha
Secure.

Johwska
Exactly.

Aga Naplocha
And Johanna, what was your dream job at that time? Did you see yourself as a graphic designer or how did you define yourself back then?

Johwska
No clue. I think I had a lot of troubles with defining myself. Even at that time when I was doing my portfolio, one of the biggest insecurities I had was that - what I am? What am I? Am I a designer? Am I a creator? Am I an artist? Am I an interactive designer? What the fuck? I can do this and this and this and that. But I'm nothing. The society pressure when you get fresh out from school and you need to define what you want, what you do, and you don't really know. I have this kind of a very experimental mindset where I love to try many things and put my hands in many technologies and tools. It was terrible for me to define myself, actually. When I did my first interview to find a real job in advertising or a design studio, the creative directors that were interviewing me, they were like... They didn't know where to put me. But I realized later on that it actually was my strength. But back in the days, I had no clue. I was very insecure. No experience in a real job and real creative job. I didn't know nothing about advertising agencies or creative design studios and stuff. But yeah, I got lucky enough to... I've made a crazy cool website underwater, a very experimental underwater portfolio that was half a video game, half a website. And this got kind of viral in the design industry. And then... So when I started to get some interviews for advertising agency, they were like, oh, I know that website. This is actually from you, how cool, blah, blah, blah. And then in my first job, I had two creative directors. One was more concept and the other one was more design. And they were like... I was in between the two. I did one year working a little bit there and working a little bit that. I actually didn't know that concept was actually like creative things. And then I realized, oh, I'm actually good at creative concepting. But yeah, that's more or less...

Paulina Kacprzak
Ok, so when there was a thought in your head to start building an AR effect, how it started?

Johwska
Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry. I lost track. Basically, I was working in advertising agency. As my title, what I was doing there, was actually... We found a new title that was digital creative. My job was for a campaign to see what we can do with digital tools and digital techs to add something crazier in the main campaign, because in advertising agency, usually there is a TVC and then prints and then the traditional advertising. And so I was like, okay, let's do a crazy website that is interactive. Let's do some AR experience. Let's do this and that. And so I was like, we were like, I had a teammate, he was called Bogdan. He was a creative tech and we were just throwing up ideas and there and there. And so there was a campaign and we got this idea to do some AR effects. It was in 2018, so there was no AR industry yet back in the days, and I was just playing around with the software that Facebook was developing that is called Spark AR. And yeah, that's it. I was playing around and then having fun and then making prototype for that specific campaign. And then our idea got killed, but I continued to play with AR for myself. And then I got the access to publish my personal AR effect on my Instagram account. And then I don't know what happened. From one day to another, one of my AR effects, the Beauty 3001, got viral. And then the AR industry became a thing. There was like AR creator. And a lot of things have changed since then.

Aga Naplocha
What was the biggest change for you after publishing this AR effect that made you that famous and helped you to gain that many followers afterwards? From now, looking at this moment.

Johwska
So many things happened. The biggest thing that happened is more introspective. The impact it got on myself and my personality and myself has Johanna, Johwska, all of the things that it brought up as having a digital identity and how you represent yourself online, like fighting my imposter syndrome. I think the biggest change is very introspective. How, for example, when I even went viral, it was from one day to another. I had no clue about what it is to be an influencer, what it is to have so much attention on yourself. And so I did a burnout first. It was my first burnout. I went independent, but I accepted so many jobs, I was young, I did so many mistakes, I didn't have a very healthy work-life balance, I worked alone, so I lost a lot of social wellness. And then I did a sort of... I rejected working alone. So I went back to I work in a big company. So I went to the US and I worked for Nike and it was terrible because I was overwhelmed and  underwhelmed at that moment. So it was like the complete opposite.

Aga Naplocha
And what was your role at Nike?

Johwska
A creative.

Aga Naplocha
Okay.

Johwska
In brand design. The brand design umbrella. Yeah, I was a creative. And then COVID happened and then I went back to Europe. Yeah, more or less. I think it's the journey that it brought me. I'm super happy it happened because there was bad moments where I was super overwhelmed with so much attention and so much work and so much input. But I also have learned so much. And I wouldn't be the creative person, the creative Johanna I am today, if I wouldn't have to go through that. So I'm grateful for this. So yeah, this would be the biggest impact. It's more like the ups and downs of the self-development journey as a creative.

Aga Naplocha
That's really interesting to hear and thanks for sharing that. Actually having this viral thing, being famous and popular, actually is a burden at one time, right? That you need to struggle with this pressure that you put on you after gaining so many followers, you don't want to let them down. You want to create even more projects and more filters, interesting stuff, so that it become really tough because you cannot be at that high energy level at the same time. You need to have some, as you mentioned, ups and downs. But because so many people know you from now on, you want to be always good.

Johwska
Exactly. It feels like you're not allowed to do some shit. It goes completely against the direction of what it is to experiment, what it is to be creative. Because being a creative is just vibing around, like oh, let's do this and this and that. When you do this and this and that, in five things you're just vibing with or designing, one of them is like wow, crazy innovative and crazy interesting and stuff. But if you don't allow yourself to do some shit then the crazy interesting things doesn't... it doesn't happen. And when you get so much attention, you feel like for your audience, you need to do higher level kind of work and just by putting that weight on your shoulder, you're completely disconnecting from that essence of being, of freely creating without expectations. And when you put so much expectation on the outcome and the thing you need to produce, then you disconnect. And when you disconnect, then you feel off. Because you put so much expectation on your work and on the outcome, because of that, you're completely disconnecting from creating and vibing how you used to do.

Paulina Kacprzak
And can you give us some examples of work you made for your clients back then, and then maybe with years, how it changed, what kind of projects you make for your clients? Because probably, I assume at the beginning, you made, since you went with your filters, probably at the beginning, they were filters, right? For your clients.

Johwska
Yeah. I mean, they used to be... I mean, they used to be... I don't like great filters for clients, for example like the Billy Eilish one, it was very simple, but was totally in the direction of my vibe. And there were some filters that were completely out of my vibe, very commercial. You don't want to publish it or you feel uncomfortable publishing it. And if you sign a contract that you need to do some stories on stuff because of this contract, then you feel like there's a very virtual, uncomfortable feeling inside of you when you're publishing. I think everybody can feel it or experience it. It's funny because now when I see this story from some friends or some influencers, I feel so compassionate with them because I can feel like they have to do it, maybe they wouldn't do it, but they have to do it. And you can feel how off and unauthentic it is in that specific story or post. And I'm like, I feel you. But yeah, there is this a visceral kind of feeling when a work is off. Obviously, when you're so proud, there's not this kind of feeling. So I don't know. Obviously, when I have this feeling, when I'm designing something that I doesn't vibe with, I don't publish it, so people don't know. I'm like, okay, done, let's do something else. But yeah, again, I've had a huge time where even great things, I didn't wanted to post them because I cared so much about the outcome or how people will see, what people would think. Things that... It is so stupid, but I was in this insecure moment. For example, I did some collaborations that were just so flowy and viby. A friend of mine that is called Laia, and she's a photographer, and she was like, okay, let's do a shoot together. Because I wanted to make more highly-produced images and beauty looks and that's true that with AR effects, the outcome is very low-resolution in mobile output. And I wanted to make something more produced. So with Laia, for example, we're like, oh, let's do a shoot, and you give me the pictures, and then I play around on the pictures. And so this was no client. It was just us vibing, she sent me the picture, we did the picture, she sent me the picture. I went on Spark AR, started to apply filters, then on Photoshop, then just vibing around. And then the outcome was a great image that was a very interesting beauty looks. Shared it on Instagram and then very good feedback from the outside, rather than sometimes like oh, let's make a campaign with a client. And then you start making a presentation with really good ideas. And then they choose an idea, then you go to production. Then the idea doesn't work, but the client isn't open to change slightly the design direction. And then they give you one feedback, two feedback, three feedback, four feedback and it takes ages to do one thing. And at the end, the outcome is so bad and dry. And so these are two different... Sometimes things flow in very fast and easy way, and sometimes just take ages which is for something dry and empty.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah, it happens. This is live. But getting back to more down to earth things like financial stuff. Could you share with us comparing your situation back then when you worked at the agency and afterwards when you were independent and went viral, so you were known known artist in the AR field and playing with different technologies? If you could compare the money you earned, was it a big change for you? Because when people see the numbers and think, oh, there's an artist having half a million people following her. It's a really massive number. So you can imagine that, whoa, money is flowing.

Johwska
I mean, definitely. I got money how never in my life I would have expect to have. But I come from a very modest family also, I come from very low. So I think today that it's not that much. I think that people with way less followers that are doing the same kind of a job as I do can actually earn more money than me if they are more businessy and they're like, let's go to talk with this brand and do some presentation. I'm not like this. I'm more like vibing, I just follow my flow. But now, today, that I'm learning about money and business and stuff...

Aga Naplocha
The book - "The psychology of money".

Johwska
Exactly. Now, I'm like, if I would have been more businessy and took the opportunity to see it as a business and stuff, I would have made way more money. But I don't care. I mean, this is my journey. I'm learning right now, and I know that in the next years things, you know... I mean, obviously, I'm earning good money, but I'm not a millionaire. Maybe one day I will.

Aga Naplocha
Fingers crossed. It would be nice to monetize like each follower is $1, right?

Johwska
Yeah. And also because I made billions of reach with Instagram  and I know that today on Snapchat and on TikTok, they monetize, they actually monetize this. But back in the days, it didn't work, it didn't work like this on Instagram. And so maybe... I don't know, this is how it is. But if it would have been monetized, like one reach equals 0.00... I don't know, euro, I would be super rich.

Paulina Kacprzak
I wanted to summarize a little bit what you said because you said that, okay, you went viral, and then you started to make these filters for clients. You made a big money suddenly, and then you felt burnout. From what I've heard, now you made some decisions to go with your vibe, with your flow of artistic creative things, and you balance it somehow with clients' work. Could you tell us, what did you change after this burnout? What have you understood? How do you make this balance now?

Johwska
I mean, it's obviously not from one day to another. It's like every day, a little adjustment. I still do some very boring shitty work because I still need some cash flow. I would love that I wouldn't have to do this boring works. So this days I'm trying to establish passive incomes and diversify my income. So I build a studio, which has nothing to do with designing, is more like a creative space with all the creatives and let's see what will happen with this. But it's one way to diversify my business income. So that's the goal. I want that one day I don't have to rely on boring campaigns and I can only do crazy, creative experiments, and this is what I actually love to do. When I have time, I'm vibing and I'm experimenting with AI, and sometimes this brings a client and it brings a good opportunity to do creative cool jobs. Sometimes I still do very boring AI campaigns or whatever it is.

Paulina Kacprzak
Do you think it's possible to make money on this crazy, creative experiments or not really?

Johwska
I think so. I think so, yeah.

Aga Naplocha
This is how it started, right?

Johwska
Exactly.

Aga Naplocha
Playing with AR filters and suddenly, you created something for fun.

Paulina Kacprzak
I guess there are clients who love this style, right? This crazy experiment style.

Johwska
Exactly. I think so, too. I think people feel it when you're vibing and you're doing crazy core experiments and you share it, then it's so authentic, then people like it, and then it get more reach and attention and things like this. And so it brings more clients and stuff. I also think that the algorithm is changing, the reach is different. I don't know, maybe it's just my mind talking right now. I'm a mom, I need to have a safe way to make money just to sustain my needs and my daughter's needs and things like this. And vibing and doing creative, cool experiments and stuff like this, it needs time.

Paulina Kacprzak
So maybe you could give us some example, because we already know that you made filters, but it's not your core business anymore like years past, and now you make a lot of things, like you said at the beginning. Could you tell us one or two examples of the work, this crazy experiment work you love? What you do exactly there? What's the subject and what are you doing there? What's your role?

Johwska
I build this creative studio that is more like... I mean, it started as a shared office, co-working space with creatives that have the same vibe as my vibe, interested with beauty, fashion, in the multimedia industry. We are four, there is one photographer that has no clue about digital stuff, but he's a good creative. There is another Houdini expert that is amazing. I mean, he has a very beautiful eye on things and a very good taste. He's called Yuri. There is Carlos, he's the photographer, and Felina. Felina is a digital artist that also worked in the fashion industry, and she's mixing photography and 3D. But we're all interested with AI and with all the tools. So there's no one tool. We all like experimenting a lot and learning from each other. So we started to do... I mean, I guess today we're a collective and we just started our first project and it's missing photography, concept, I mean, concept, photography, 3D implementation that could be also AI, depending on what's the idea and the concept, but it's making image. And for example, I just launched, I did an editorial on a magazine in Madrid called Decay. And so it was basically photography with things that are on top of fabrics or on top of the face that can look real, that are not real. Everything is made with AI on the photography, but... This is what I love to do with AR or with AI or whatever. It's like finding the fine line in between something that is real in something that is not and provoke this visceral thing in the user or in the spectator, the people that see the art, this visceral thing of like, ohhh, what the fuck is this? Is this real? So this is like the fine line that I love to play with. And so these days I'm playing with AI a lot because I love it, but it can be made with AR.

Paulina Kacprzak
Sometimes it's hard to describe what you do because it's so on the edge of things. So we encourage everyone who is listening to us or watching us to go to Johanna's profile on Instagram and check what is that exactly.

Johwska
Yeah, just to give some visual image. For example, there was a picture, a portrait of myself, in a blue background, and then there is something on my face that looks like glass that is mixing with my face. And that is weird, but it really brings this visual and visceral effect of what the fuck?

Paulina Kacprzak
And also on the top of that, it's really beautiful and esthetic.

Johwska
Thank you.

Paulina Kacprzak
What tools do you use? Because you mentioned AI. Do you use some specific apps for your work?

Johwska
Yeah. I mean, for research and ideation, like visual ideation, I use Midjourney. It's my favorite. Then this is like just... I think Midjourney is great to vibe, to create some visual concepts and crazy new imagery. Then to produce on an image, I use stable diffusion. It can be through Invoq. Invoq is the interface of Stable Diffusion, or it can be Comfy UI. I mean, literally, it's basically the same thing, it's just the interface that changed. So that's what I use. And then AR-wise, I use Spark AR, but the Spark AR is dying next January. And so I started to put my hands on Snapchat, which is called Lens Studio. And maybe I will put my hands on TikTok, but if I have time.

Aga Naplocha
It's also interesting because a lot of tools require at least to have a basic technical knowledge to understand what you do. It's not popular among artists to be eager to find out more about geeky things. You mentioned that you were a nerd, so I think that it makes the whole issue easier. But if you could share with us about your technical background. You mentioned that you were self-thought, but it's not very easy to get into tech world in the first place because sometimes it's too confusing for non-techy people. So how do you do it? And also another question is that, do you know how to code? Do you know the basics?

Johwska
Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I think it's more of a mindset than a knowledge. Because today we have access to so many things. You can learn how to code, but if you know how to code, but you don't have a drive to do something, you will not do anything. What I have is I have many drives. So it depend on what drives me. Back in the days when I didn't know anything about AR, my drives were more like Unity 3D and mixing video games and a web design. So that were my drives. And from that drives, then I was looking for tutorials, opening templates, breaking things, and learning by experimenting, learning by getting closer to my goal. And also for the sake of learning, because it's fun to just like, oh, you can do this, let's see what we can do. Just like vibing and experimenting in this. I obviously have now a knowledge with programming, but each software has a different programming language. It can be like node based, it can be like scripts, it can be like, there's so many... Coding is so vast. It doesn't mean anything, coding, because it's a language. There are so many different languages. Can you talk? Yes, I can talk. I can talk in English, I can talk in French, I can talk in Spanish. It's the same with coding. In which language can you code? You can code in CSS, in JavaScript, in a node based, which is like no writing, but like with visual nodes and boxes that you connect together. It's more like a... I think the programming is about the mindset of finding something and finding the way to make it happen. And then you have a base and it's kind of broken and you find a way so that it's not broken, so you're fixing the bugs and you make it so that it works in the way you want it to work. I don't think I'm a good programmer or I'm a good coder because obviously, good programmers would see my nodes and my scripts as terrible. But I'm not aiming to be a programmer. That's not my goal. Just trying out, seeing how it works. I think it's more like a hacker mindset. There's so many things we can do with one single tool. I think this mindset comes from the way I grew up in a very modest family in the beginning of the Internet, where there were torrents. We could hack video game consoles. I remember I had the Dreamcast and there was a way to download a loader and download a video game. So back in the days, you could engrave the loader and then put it on the Dreamcast. And then after the loader, you could put any video game you downloaded online. And so this is like a hacker mindset. It's just like, oh, I don't have money to watch this movie, but back in the days, there was torrent, so there was a way to watch this movie or this series or this manga or whatever. And so in a way, it's the same thing that I'm replicating when I want to do something. I'm like, oh, I would love to do this. How can I do this? And then I start to learn about one software. I found a tutorial about that software. I start to learn the basics or the basics that I need to learn. I don't I need to learn everything about the software to start using it. And then I find a template that is closer to the project I want to do. I open the template, I'm lost, and then I start to understand how it works. Then I break everything, I open the template again, and then I understand how it works. And then I change the assets and I change the things in the way I want them to be. And yeah, things happen.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah, everything is remixed.

Johwska
Yeah, exactly.

Aga Naplocha
Great. It's really inspiring approach, I think. Having open mind and trying things out, not to be too afraid that, oh, my God, it's a new programming language, but - I just wanted to try out.

Johwska
Yeah. And also there is a lot of similarities in any of those programming languages. And for sure today with ChatGPT, you can just, I mean, you don't even have to know, to learn how to code today to be able to do something, because ChatGPT can do it for you.

Paulina Kacprzak
What inspires you? I'm really curious if you have some people you follow, if they are, I don't know, artists, designers, or maybe some technical people, or maybe you find inspiration in some totally other fields. How you do it?

Johwska
Everything. Everything, anything. Obviously, I have some of my favorite creatives. Isamaya ffrench, for example. She's a makeup artist. Nothing to do. But she have made projects with different multimedia tools and techniques as well. But she's a vibe and I love her vibe. Photographers, cinema, life in general. I don't know. I guess there's no one thing. There's just many things and it's always changing, my inspirations. Yeah. These days I'm really obsessed with self-development and wellness and skincare. I'm mixing it with my creative background and my nerdy touch.

Paulina Kacprzak
This is what I've expected, to be honest. Okay. You take from everything.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah. And being specific about Madrid, are there any events there or, I don't know, meetups? You mentioned the Patio, the creative space that you set up with other people, the collaborative team. But are there any other places like that in Madrid?

Johwska
There is a lot. The creative art scene, design, architecture is huge. The more popular art scene in Madrid is more like tangible, painting, design and stuff. But there is a scene for digital media, and it's great. There is a bigger scene in Barcelona about digital media, 3D and stuff like that, that is already established since many years. But it's also great that there is an opportunity in Madrid to create that scene. I'm grateful to be already connected with that scene and there is a lot of opportunities in Madrid and it's great. I'm happy to be a part of it.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah. And I'm also really curious about the project, the place that you set up, that you, I guess, renovated? Could you tell us more about the building itself? Because it seems like it's a big thing, right? Because I saw the pictures of the Patio. It's amazing. It's beautiful. And I strongly recommend everyone to visit the Instagram to check it out. It's, wow, totally creative space when you feel like the creative juices are flowing there, definitely. But if you could share with us more details, how did you find the place, about the investment and where you were alone there to start everything from the legal side as well.

Johwska
Of course. Okay, let's start with the beginning. I've traveled a lot. I lived in Berlin, then I lived in the US, then I moved to Spain and I think I was 27, 28 or 29. Yeah, like this. I was in Spain and I was like, fuck, Madrid. I love that city. And I had this super... Sometimes you know without knowing why, but you know this is where you want to stay, where you want to be. Obviously, it's intuition. My intuition told me, this is it. This is where I want to just be based. So it started like this. I was like, my first year, I learned Spanish in one year. I don't know, I got so integrated to the city. So many friends, very social. It's a very interesting city socially because it's very open-minded. People mix. It's very open. I love Madrid. It's very great city. Anyway, I felt like I'm going to stay here. And then I was like, okay. Also, I was in a period of my time where, okay, now I make money but I was so irresponsible with money. And that's why I want to learn the psychology of money today. Because I was very irresponsible. I was traveling and spending my money and going to party and being there and here and other. Very, very irresponsible. I've never thought about buying something and investing. I had no clue about what investment means. Back in the day, I was just like vibing and being very adolescent. My sister, which is nine years older, she's totally the inverse of that. She told me, Johanna, you need to start investing. She's working in finances. She's very creative, but in her industry, we're really different. But there are some similarities. Anyway. She's my older sister, so she always had this parental mindset with me, like - you need to do this better. She is perfectionist, so terrible. Anyway, started to see the seed of investment, being responsible about money, blah, blah, blah. When I used to be very reckless and irresponsible, and the seed started to grow. And now I knew that I wanted to be based here. I had like, okay, and maybe I should start thinking about investing here. Stop paying a rent because when you pay a rent, that's true, you're actually throwing money by the window and the rents are getting higher and higher and higher, that kind of vibe. So back in the days, I was sharing the office with a friend of mine, which is also a designer and architect that had a studio called Fonte in Madrid. He's called Guillermo Trapello. And I was like, oh, well, I would love to buy something. And we got this idea, oh, yeah, it's cheap to buy an industrial place, you know, kind of loft, and we could work on a reform to make it a cool loft space. My dream has always been to have a house that was a loft and this kind idea. And then I was like, okay, let's do it. My intuition told me, okay, let's do it. So we started to make a group with the architects that are also friends of mine, and we started to look for industrial spaces. We found one. I bought cash. And I was... Yeah, it was terrible. I mean, the riskiest and the stupidest kind of investment I did. But this is me. I love risk. I spend all, not all my money, no. But I spend a lot of money buying cash because I didn't have enough years of fiscal identity in Spain, so I couldn't find any credits. So I had to buy cash. And then I think I found a credit six months later when I had like, finally, three years of fiscal thing. Anyway, then I got a credit and then I started to pay the reform with the architect and it came out. It was very long. Also got pregnant at the same moment. Terrible.

Aga Naplocha
Oh, wow. Two big projects.

Johwska
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, yeah. And so it was supposed to be my home, my dream home. And then I got pregnant. And then I gave birth. And then I realized, what a stupid idea to work in the same place where is your family home. What a stupid idea. And so I changed that idea. I was like, okay, let's change direction because this is not going to work. It's not healthy to have your creative space in the same space where you have home. It's like mixing everything. It's not healthy for the mind. It's not healthy for the body. You're just always in the same space in the loop, and it's terrible, it's not good. So I changed the idea and I said, okay, let's do a creative space and let's make event for the creative community and stuff like this. And this is what happened. And so we started as a creative co-working space. We're four now, very beautiful creative people, and there is such a good synergy in between each other. So we're starting to make a collective all together. And I love it. It makes me feel so... I mean, we're so open to each other and we're all creatives with the same insecurities and creative problems that you, when you face those creative problems as a freelancer or independent with other creatives, then like, wow, it's vocalizing it, talking about it, talking vulnerably about your problems with one another. It makes such a huge difference and such a safe space for us. And so there's such a good synergy. I don't know. It's so good for my system. And so I'm step by step developing this space where I'm also renting the space because it's a very beautiful, designly beautiful space. So for photoshoot and things like this I invested in all the material to make photoshoot. Carlos is a photographer. So when we do a project with photography, we have everything in-house. I also call it a kindergarten for creatives because it's a little bit of this. We're all four creative and we're just like kids playing around with tools. Right now, the renting part is more this way to make passive income. And I also want to create event for the community, the creative community and digital community and see how it goes. So yeah, this is my way to take the cup of a businesswoman. And I think it's a joke, but I love that joke. And I want to play that game for a while and see how I learn, like fake it till you make it.

Paulina Kacprzak
It's amazing story. And what really resonates with me, I think with Aga as well, is what you said about your friends, that you have this safe space with them in co-working and everything. And we also really appreciate this kind of relationships. So how did you guys met? Are they all from Spain or maybe they are expats like you?

Johwska
No, they're all from Spain. The craziest thing in Spain, in Madrid here, is that I don't know any expats, any. All my friends are from Madrid or from Spain. It's crazy. And that's why I think I had this feeling of like, yeah, this is it. This is where I'm going to be based because I'm so integrated to the city. It's not like in Berlin, I was only vibing with other expats. In Berlin, I had a really hard time to really deeply connect to the German Berliner culture, because you are always speaking English, very difficult to learn the language and stuff like this. But yeah, anyway, Madrid. No, I don't know how it happened. Very flowly, it just happened. Yeah. Connections. I don't know. I didn't make any announcement. It just happened from someone that knew someone. Then, oh, let's talk about it. She has a very... Friends of friends that felt the vibe and that connected us and then we connected and I don't know. Things just happened very naturally. And this is also why I think that is not forced. It just naturally flows with a natural energy and vibe. It feels good, you know, to don't force to get somewhere, like, I want to do this. No. It's just like, let's build this and see how it goes and then like, naturally, things happen.

Paulina Kacprzak
I think it's a really nice thing and a success because it's not easy to make this deep relationships with people in different countries when you're an expat, right? And the language is new for you. Everything is new for you, right? Of course, we share the European culture, but it's always a little bit different in different country.

Johwska
Yeah. I got integrated really fast. It was very crazy. When I got integrated in Madrid it was the post-COVID time. So it was very interesting, out of being in confinement, then things open up and then you resocialize and you resocialize in a deeper way. I wasn't scared about making mistakes. I still do many mistakes. I speak really good Spanish, but I still do some funny mistakes, but I think it's really funny and I think everybody loves it. I love it. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So...

Aga Naplocha
Congrats on learning Spanish so fast.

Johwska
Thank you.

Aga Naplocha
Okay. So getting back a little bit to work and projects, could you briefly take us through the steps you take when you join a new project? So a client reaches you out, you agree that you want to work with each other and what happens next? Because your work seems to be very experimental, right? It's tough to put it in a box and set some sort of rules, but maybe you already have a workflow for you. So if you could share it with us, because I think it would be really interesting for other creatives how you actually work.

Johwska
Of course. Obviously, it depends on the work. If it's the project with Jean Paul Gaultier, for example, for a campaign, then it's very straightforward. It's like, okay, we want a filter for the blah, blah, blah campaign, and this is the vibe of the campaign, and we want a filter. What do you propose?

Aga Naplocha
Yeah. And usually, how much time do you need to work on a project like that? Like creating a filter for a campaign?

Johwska
It depends. Sometimes when it's a filter for a fashion show, you have one week. When it's a filter for a campaign, you have three, four months. So it really depends. Obviously, you can do something in one week, but it's so rushed. But then you're like, oh, it's a fashion show. It's a good brand. You do it and you're like awwww.. But it's also great. You know what? Sometimes I do like when it's rushed, because you're such in a creative tunnel. You do... It's very intense, but you can make it in one week or two, rather than like sometimes when it's six months project. It's just like, you do other things at the same time, you disconnect, you reconnect. Disconnecting, reconnecting takes a lot of time, too. Anyway, we're going to another direction again. Let's take an example of I'm doing a Jean Paul Gaultier face filter, for example, for the campaign. So they say me, oh, we have this new campaign. What do you propose? So I start making a presentation with the mood board and I start proposing like one, two, three ideas, depending. And I do like a visual ideas. So it's just a mood board, how it works, how it would look like, some references. And I pitch the presentation to the client. Then the client gives me a direction. Then based on the direction, I fine-tune the actual direction based on the feedback. And then after that phase, I start prototyping. So the prototyping phase can be fast or can be very long, depending on how much I have to learn new things based on the idea, yes or no. So it really depends. This is a very difficult phase for me. It's also very exciting because I love to learn new things and I love to spend some time experimenting, but experimentation can be endless. And so this is the phase where I start building up the rough filter. So it can take two, three weeks, depending on the time we have. So there are two cases. The first case is the easy one. You start building, everything works well and there is no problem, and then you spend the last week fine-tuning and done. The second case that happened is that there is an update on the software. You need to fix the problem. The things you had in mind doesn't work or it looks like shit. You need to find another direction that looks better. Or you experiment, and by experimenting and starting to build your thing, you find something better. And then you're like, oh, so this is what I proposed but I'll propose this too. It looks so much fun. Sometimes we go in that direction, sometimes not. So, yeah. I think the creative process is also allowing yourself to do that kind of surprise. Yeah. And then the last step is creating assets. So the icon, record a video. If you want to post a nice well-produced asset, so some pictures. That's more or less the process for an AR filter for a campaign or something like this.

Aga Naplocha
You mentioned that you're fascinated by AI. You mentioned Midjourney, the other tools as well, Comfy UI. Could you maybe give us one example of the work that you produced with AI and work with a client on that?

Johwska
For example, I did a sort of with Studio Halia, which is a new creative studio for creative cool digital culture, I would say, in the fashion and beauty world. They made a manifesto and I did a day in a life, like mini AI picture experiment where it's just like an Instagram posts of a day in a life made by AI. It's like follow this AI character having a day in their lives, but made with Midjourney. The AI touch with Midjourney is like, it looks real, but you feel the vibe, but something is very surrealistic and there are some weird details and things are mixed up. So that is an example of an editorial. Another example is the tutorial I did with the magazine that I just launched in the past weeks. It's like some pictures of myself, we did a shoot and then I worked on applying some weird digital pieces on top of it that are inspired by jewelry pieces that were on the shoot. They're jewelry made of glass. So I reused the same vibe to make some sort of under-eyes pieces or on top of the dress. And so, as there is the picture with the real jewelry, you don't know what's real and what's not. I really love to play with this. So this is another example with AI. For now, that's it.

Paulina Kacprzak
There's also this decision of Meta that the Instagram filters are going to be deprecated. How do you feel about it? And are you worried how it affects your work? How do you deal with this decision?

Johwska
A mixed feelings. So I think the first days, I had a hard time to accept it. I think the all feeling, the all idea of it is like a grieving process. Having a hard time to accept it. And at the same time, a lot of excitement for what's next. I guess.. I think I accepted it right now. I'm also a little bit worried about the financial aspect because my work was mainly based on Instagram filters. I already started to learn Lens Studio, and I think I love it. I mean, it's a great tool, so I'm going to vibe there. Excitement also, maybe, like detach myself from doing just one thing. I think I always had a hard time with seeing myself being just like AI filter maker or being only in the AR industry, although I'm not doing only this, but maybe it's a good opportunity to show off my other works and working more with photography and AI and 3D and all that stuff. But yeah, a grieving process, worried, scared, excited. Also, there is this realizing that most of my works were depending on Meta and Spark, this platform. And knowing that this platform can just vanish in one day is just... I think it's sad and scary, but also it's a good thing because now I just want to diversify my income.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah, exactly.

Johwska
Exactly. Yeah. So it's a good thing. I'm grateful for that lesson. Yeah.

Paulina Kacprzak
Do you know why they made this decision?

Johwska
I don't know, to be honest. I suppose... Okay, this is my supposition. I think Meta wants to be the next Apple. Meta invested a lot of money on building devices, so they started to make Meta Ray Ban, which are the intelligent eyewear with some cameras and with Llama, which is the AI model from Meta. You can talk with the glasses and you say, Hey, Meta, what blah, blah, blah. Hey Meta, where did I park my car? Hey, Meta, take a photo. Things like this. It's actually a great-looking piece of technology, and I think it's a cool tool for creators and people that are creating content on social media. And they also built Oculus and since years already, they're really into the VR world and they want to invest more in this. And I think they want to invest more in mixed reality. They build the very first good-looking piece of AR glasses that is just a prototype. They announced it in the Meta Connect a few weeks ago. It's really good piece of technology. But obviously, I guess they need to detach themselves from face filters to be more on the AR, mixed reality realm and for that, maybe they want the creators to go into more the mixed reality realm and stop developing on Spark AR. I don't know. They're still going to use Spark AR internally. Maybe they want brands to work directly with Meta and don't work with creators so they internalize the income they can have with brands. I don't know. I think they're going to be filters, but in-house filters, like filters from Meta, not filters from creators, or maybe they're going to collaborate, I don't know how. I think it's sad, but this is how it is. I'm also excited to see a platform without filters. I'm controversial, but yeah. Whatever.

Aga Naplocha
Yeah. So, Johanna, the last question. What are the skills or maybe one skill that you would like to focus on in the upcoming weeks or months? Maybe there's something that you would like to learn?

Johwska
Aaah, a skill. Okay.

Aga Naplocha
Psychology of money, maybe. Hahaha.

Johwska
Definitely! I think I want to learn business. I think I want to learn business so that I can live a life without worrying so much about money and vibe much more. I think this is what I want to focus on. I'm there. I'm getting there.

Paulina Kacprzak
We really like this approach, actually. We care about financial stuff and all the Excels and everything so we can free our mind to be creative.

Johwska
Exactly. I think they should insist more in art school and design school about the business side of things because you can be an artist and have a good, and make good money. I think we should detach ourselves with this idea of a creative and designer that is like a rat in a small studio that is like, stinky and stuff. I wish I would have learned about money earlier in my life.

Aga Naplocha
Fingers crossed for your journey.

Paulina Kacprzak
Better now than never.

Johwska
Thank you.

Aga Naplocha
Thank you so much, Johanna. We wish you a lot of creative projects, energy, and a lot of money, of course.

Johwska
Thank you. I wish you all the same.

Paulina Kacprzak
Thank you, too.

Johwska
For anyone that is listening to that podcast, everything is possible. Let's make it happen.

Aga Naplocha
Yes. Perfect.

Johwska
Thank you.

Paulina Kacprzak
Thank you so much for listening. You can find notes and links to this episode on our website, designpractice.pl/063.

Aga Naplocha
If you like our podcast, subscribe it on your favorite podcast platform or YouTube. Go ahead and leave your comments on Spotify. We'll be super grateful for your feedback.

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